Sunday, 09 August 2009
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The Dangers of Inter-Cultural Marriage…
Date-stamped due to 7th comment added. Someone needs help. I'm hoping one of my readers can help better than I. Maybe Neeka1? Please?
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…Especially the marriage of free-born western women to Middle-Eastern Muslim males, though I’m pretty sure there are other cultures that would run very counter to what a western woman expects out of marriage and life in general. I only know much about the effects of a western woman marrying a Middle-Eastern Muslim male. Been there, done that, it was hell on earth, and I’ve known plenty of other women who have gone through the same.
This morning, I was watching a very sad video about Dr. Mahmoody, the Iranian Muslim husband of Betty Mahmoody and their child Mahtob from the book and movie Not Without My Daughter. He was telling his side of the story and trying in vain to make contact with his lost daughter Mahtob. You can see it HERE if curious. It's called Without My Daughter.
Naturally, though I pity this sad old man, my biggest sympathies are with Betty and Mahtab who went through hell trying to live in the Islamized Iran, felt imprisoned and oppressed, and ended up fleeing it because Dr. Mahmoody wouldn’t allow them to leave otherwise. I went through a LOT of the same things Betty did but, unlike her, I did not manage to escape with my child.
Like Betty, I too wrote my story, Lost in Foreign Passions, of which an excerpt is at Shalla Magazine: The Wild Cats of Teheran.
Partially it was a catharsis for me to face, get past, and distance myself from a source of considerable sorrow, confusion, and trauma for me. Partially it was the telling of the biggest adventure of my life, for better or worse, culturally and spiritually eye-opening, and a good story in its own right. Most importantly, though, I considered myself obligated to warn other American women against into falling into the trap that I did. If I could spare even one that misery, it would be worth looking the fool and whatever trouble it took.
I don’t know what Betty’s motives were. Maybe the same. Who knows? But Iranians in general are outraged at the fame her book accrued at the great expense of Iranian Muslim men and their culture. They add insult to injury by accusing Betty of lying, of propagandizing for profit.
Dr. Mahmoody never apologizes for what he put his wife and daughter through. In any case, he really did love his daughter and was as kind and loving to her as his cultural would allow. He doesn’t know what he may have done wrong. Doesn’t think he did anything wrong. Does not, in fact, seem to understand why Betty reacted to her unwitting incarceration the way she did. He did nothing wrong according to his culture.
And that’s the trouble. They don’t hurt us on purpose. They may lie in order to convert us to Islam, to marry them, to get us back to their country, but they do it in all innocence. Taqiya (lying for the sake of religion) is permitted, even encouraged, in Islam. It’s not at all because they’re terrible people. No. It’s only because their cultural expectations ran counter to ours that they do us great harm and end up themselves paying a steep price for it in both personal and international infamy.
Here are lists of the expectations of a Middle-Eastern Muslim husband (not sure if it applies to westernized Muslims or not) as opposed to a free-born western woman, regardless of her religious affiliations:
Muslim Husband:
No dating prior to marriage. Marriage is to be done only by arrangement, often by family. If he does venture to date an unknowing foreign woman, he will try to sneak it by his family because if they find out they will be furious. Very traditional families will strive to get him back to their homeland for a forced arranged marriage or they may even kill him for disobedience in a act called "honor killing," though willful daughters are far more susceptible to this than willful sons are. Sons are more likely to be disowned and/or harrassed relentlessly.He has the right of veto on anything his wife or children choose to do. They require his permission to go outside the home, to travel, to drive, practice birth control (a capital offense in some Islamic countries), to go to school, to have friends over… He gets to tell her how to dress.
He can have sex from her any time he wants it even if she doesn’t or is busy doing something else. There is no such thing as marital rape.
His wife and children will participate in the ritual Islamic prayers 5 times a day.
He has a right to beat her for disobedience or even if he suspects she’s thinking about it. There is no such thing as domestic abuse.
The children will be raised in his religion and go to an Islamic school. Period.
His wife will sooner or later convert to Islam. Though some very broadminded Muslim men will accept a fundamentalist Christan, Jew, or Hindu wife as well, it’s unusual. If he does marry a Christian, Jew, or Hindu, he will still be on her constantly to convert to Islam. She will be an embarrassment to him and unaccepted by his family until she does.
If he converts to his non-Muslim wife's religion, his family will likely hunt him down and kill him. I mean that literally. Apostasy from Islam is a capital offense in Islam. The punishment in an Islamic country is usually crucifiction. In the West, its more like a Mafia hit: quick and brutal.
No child of his allowed to marry a non-Muslim. Ever. Period.
He gets to share all the holidays he was raised with his children but none of those known by non-Muslim, or previously non-Muslim, wife.
He has a right to 4 wives and unlimited concubines but she has a right only to him.
He is allowed to “honor” kill his wife or children at any age for disobeying or in any way embarrassing him. In some Islamic countries, this is a misdemeanor; in some it’s not a crime at all but an expectation.
He can divorce his wife just by repeating “I divorce you!” three times in a row in front of a witness or in writing. She doesn’t have to witness it or even know. She is not allowed to divorce him without his permission.
He gets child custody for children, period, regardless of age, if his wife has a non-Muslim background. If she has a Muslim background, she will be allowed to have the babies in her custody while they are babies but then must relinquish them to him. There is no stigma on the mother for losing custody since this is just the way of things in Islamic culture and I know of no circumstance, even abuse, where a Muslim father would ever loose custody except in the case of a runaway wife and child. But in that case, he wouldn't be stigmatized; he'd be sympathized with.
If, for some reason, he relinquishes child custody to an ex wife, he will never pay child support.
Free-Born Western Wife:Dating is a required pre-requisite to marriage and arranged marriages are a joke not to be taken seriously that no one has the right to enforce on her or her children.
She has equal rights in ANY decision making as a couple and every right to make autonomous decisions concerning whether she can go outside the home, travel, drive, practice birth control, go to school (if their finances can support it), have friends over, and dress the way she wants to dress.
She can say “No” to sex any time she wants to and call it rape if he forces it on her.
Prayer is optional and spiritually motivated. Ritual prayer will usually be regarded as an empty display.
He has no right to beat her. Ever. If he does, she can have him arrested for domestic abuse.
If she’s open-minded enough to marry outside of her culture or the religion she was raised in, she’ll expect her children will be brought up with aspects of both hers and her husband’s culture/religion.
Her children can marry whomever they want to as long as they are past the age of emancipation (18).
She will expect to be able to celebrate the holidays belonging to both cultures even if she has abandoned her previous non-Muslim religion for Islam.
Monagamous by inclination... but if he’s polygamous, she sees it as her right to be polygamous too or at least have an “Open Marriage” since polygamy isn’t really legal or recognized in the west.
Murder is murder and “Honor” has nothing to do it. People go to prison for life or are executed for that.
She has equal right to divorce him as he has to divorce her.
She will get child custody unless she relinquishes it willingly or is proven an unfit mother. It is a BIG social stigma for a mother not to get custody of her child, but no stigma on a non-custodial father.
The non-custodial parent pays child support regardless of whether or not he/she was ever married to the other parent.
That’s just a very basic sampling for you, strictly concerning marriage that doesn't even begin to take into account how difficult life is for a free-born woman unwillingly transplanted to an Islamic culture with or without marriage. It doesn’t take a lot of imagination to see what kind of damage that can wreck on a relationship.
Some cultures may be compatible and even those that aren’t, if the partners are willing to compromise enough, may be able to get along anyway. I know of a few rare success stories. But the chances are heavy against it and the price for failure can be unbelievably high. I cannot recommend against it strongly enough... for BOTH sides.
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Comments (22)
That was very interesting. I had no idea. Now I want to look up more information on the topic.
Thanks for sharing your story. There are dangers in dating a muslim, but not all stories are like these. Take my cousin's for example, she was dating a muslim man (actually, two of my cousins dated muslim man). He was married before her, separated from his previous Hispanic wife. Couldn't get a divorce because something to do with a visit to Mecca. He never tried to feed anything down her throat, don't think his family really cared, and didn't try to bring her back to the country. Their relationship didn't work out because the ex was crazy. Always trying to split them up even though she had a man. Also, I know a girl who's half American and half Egyptian muslim (in fact, I know of two). She has been raised as a muslim, although I have never heard anything of the sort come out of her mouth. Point is, her dad respects her mother, is a strict father no doubt, but has been influenced by American culture. The muslim kids that are being raised in the states are loosing that culture strictness. Yet, I have heard horror stories of American women going to the Middle East and what they've faced. Not every man is like that, but one must have precautions.
Er, hi, I'm a muslim, I happened onto your weblog on datingish. I skimmed through most of your post, and what you say about Muslim men are mostly true - in the middle east. Or maybe a decade ago. Maybe it's just that I haven't been exposed to a lot of middle eastern Muslim men, living in Singapore, but a lot of the Muslim guys I know would never do any of those things you mentioned, even though technically, they could. Dating is allowed, honor killing really IS regarded as plain old murder, the children do have to be raised in the religion but they don't have to go to a Muslim school, etc. If he converts to his wife's religion, he will most certainly NOT be killed. I can't imagine that Mafia hit thing happening in the west. His family would probably be really pissed off, true, but the worst that they'd do is just disown him. Kids are allowed to date a non-muslim, but if they get married, they have to convert.
It's possible that all this stuff I just mentioned is just a Singpore Muslim thing, and the rest of the Muslim world still follow those strict rules. I wouldn't know, never having lived anywhere outside Singapore - but somehow I doubt it.
I'm probably just being super sensitive or whatever, but this post felt like another attack against my religion, even though I know it's not how you intended it. It's just that I know so many happy interracial & intercultural relationships between Muslims, Christians, Bhuddist, Middle Eastern, Western, whathaveyou people, and they're all blissful together. What you mention here, it's all the worst-case-scenario types, and to be honest I don't think it happens that often. It happened to you, and I'm sorry, but not all Muslim men are like that, including Middle Eastern Muslim men.
It is the twenty-first century, after all. Most muslim families choose to move with the times, and those rules are acknowledged but hardly ever put into use. And the "free born Western wife" should be smart enough to know what she's getting into when she chooses to marry a "Muslim Husband" - she'd also be smart enough to choose a husband who loves her.. ;) Most men in love with their wives wouldn't see a need to get a second one, and they would never hurt her. It's an individual choice, and every situation is different. It's hard for two people from two different cultures and religions to get together, but it's not impossible to work through, and the endings are mutually satisfying relationships.
Anyway, I should think I'm done with my rant now. I wish you luck with your situation. =)
@ImpulsivelyMe214 - Please feel free to rant here any time. It's good to share perspectives. Anyway, I would tend to agree with you on the following points:
1. "What you say about Muslim men are mostly true - in the middle east."
Yeah. They usually do act very different in the west with culture pressure off than they do in their homelands with culture pressure on. In my experience and that of other women in that situation, the guy literally changes as the plane is landing. He knows full well the pressures he's about to undergo and is preparing for it.
2. "It's possible that all this stuff I just mentioned is just a Singpore Muslim thing, and the rest of the Muslim world still follow those strict rules."
I think so. I've heard that Singapore Muslims are much easier going. People there were, what? Budhist before Islam came to them? I like to think that the peaceful nature of Budhist culture is by habit underlying the new religion laying atop it, if that makes sense. In the Middle East proper where there are no peaceful roots that I know of, things are VERY different. As I see it, people are people first before they are religious, They have their natural tendencies and temperments well before they ever have religion.
3. "And the "free born Western wife" should be smart enough to know what she's getting into when she chooses to marry a "Muslim Husband" - she'd also be smart enough to choose a husband who loves her."
Hm. I only half agree with you here. "Should be" is a different thing than "actual is." Primarily, this is less often because of stupidity than ignorance, idealism, rampant hormones, and lack of life experience. A young girl falling for a sexy foreign national is unlikely to know what she's getting into. And if he plays the game right - and many do - she is unlikely to know it if he doesn't really love her until after she's already sacraficed everything to be with him. In fact, since arranged marriages are considered an outrageous enough idea to be little more than a very bad joke in the West, a woman is unlikely to marry at all unless she's convinced the guy loves her. That's a fact. What's also a fact is that she can be fooled into thinking he does, especially if he proposes marriage to her. She wouldn't think anything but love would motivate him to ask. And that's not all she could be inadvertantly misled about...
Islam, practiced strictly, is literally beyond the comprehension of a free-born young woman. Rules of how to dress, how to pray, how to eat? Rules that disallow her the civil rights she's been born and bred to expect? Rules that can kill her if she doesn't watch out and for things not even a misdemeanor in the West? Many won't believe it even if they're told. The only people they might listen to are the ones that have experienced it. I have experienced it - that strict form of Islam and all of the above - so consider it an obligation to make them think twice about such marriages.
You say, "It's just that I know so many happy interracial & intercultural relationships between Muslims, Christians, Bhuddist, Middle Eastern, Western, whathaveyou people, and they're all blissful together."
I wish I knew of any such relationships. I don't. Not saying you don't. It's just that all I know about are the total misfires and the ones where he pressures his non-Muslim wife to convert and she spends the rest of their marriage unhappy and resentful of having to play the part of something a bit hostile to her as a woman that she neither feels nor believes.
I would say, though, that such relationships have a chance of working only if both partners can accept each other exactly the way they are with no insistence on change or conversion and their children introduced to both religions and free to choose any they like or none at all. Otherwise, it's just too stressful. And that's my whole point in describing the extreme situation... that, and the fact that I've seen quite a few intercultural marriages go that extreme way.
I'm sorry if that offends you. I really am. But I consider it more important that potential victims of the pitfalls get their fair warning.
I realize this is a random comment, but I encourage Ampbreia to read a book called "Three Cups of Tea" written by Greg Mortenson and David Oliver Relin. You seem to be an excellent writer blessed with a very analytical and critical mind (this is a compliment) and I know that often writers become great writers because of the mountains of books they have studied. I assume from this impression I have had from your gifts that you enjoy books. The only context I will give you of the relevance of this book recommendation to your specific blog post is that it contains in-depth experiences with an American interacting with Muslims in the "Middle East" with modern-day Taliban experiences that you may find interesting.
I appreciate the dialogue you are encouraging from other readers in this blog. May you continue your journey of healing from your experiences,
Lindsey
@Lindsey - Thank you, I will. I've noticed that book every single time I've gone into a book store for some time now. About time I read it. My experiences are personal too as you seem to understand, only my direct experience was with Shia Iranian Muslims, not Taliban, which I'm sure is horse of an entirely different color. I've read some about the Taliban - women's perspectives - but not as much as on more normalized Islamic cultures. Afghanistan has gone through more than most.
Dear Xanga Network. This is a reverse situation. Perhaps with your knowledge you will be able to enlighten me.
My brother, a Christian of English extraction married a Muslim woman of Pakistani extraction. Religion wasn't a big issue with them, but her parents pestered them to marry in an Islamic ceremony. They did so, but soon after married in a civil ceremony (South Africa)
They had a little boy. The maternal parents immediately removed mother and child back to their home despite all protests from my brother. He has legally fought for contact with his son, and has been thwarted at every turn by the maternal family, who have used every dirty trick in the book to stop him, including having him beaten up and jailed for nothing.
They are teaching the child fundamental and extreme religious claptrap - i.e. All non Muslims are Shaitan - He (the child must not go on the beach because the Hindus scatter the ashes of their dead on the sand) Jesus is only a silly old man etc. If he eats anything his father gives him, the devil will dance on his grave etc., etc.,
The child has said he watches videos with the maternal grandfather of Muslims beheading & blowing up Christians That he will join the Mujahadeen and kill all Christians. When the maternal grandfather couldn't stop my brother from insisting on retaining the bond with his child, they began beating the child before access visits, then finally also after access visits. Despite reporting the incident to the Police and case dockets opened, when the Police visited the maternal family, the child was too frightened to talk to them in front of his grandparent.
My brother wants no part of their twisted ideology - He wants to raise his son in a normal environment - but is up against politically correct people here who throw up their hands and say "oh but that sort of thing doesn't happen in South Africa"
The child has no choice - As far as the maternal grandparents are concerned, he will be raised as a Muslim whether he wants to or not - Furthermore, they will brook no argument from anyone, and will break the law to achieve their aims.
Islamic marriages were not recognised here in S.A. when they went through the ceremony. S.A. is a secular country, therefore, their civil marriage in court would have been the last contract they undertook, which logically, I assume cancels out the Islamic marriage.
Their attorneys (also Muslim) argue that he became a Muslim when they initially married - therefore, the child must remain with the Muslim family.
Our constitution states no-one can be forced to take on a religion, and In my view, as all children are born athiest, one can only guide - not indoctrinate and that children should be encourage to enjoy freedom of thought to learn and judge for themselves as they mature.
The grandfather beat the child severely after my brother's last visit, then denied it when it was reported to the Police. Once again, the child was interviewed by a social worker who denied it had happened.
My brother feels helpless - retaining contact is only making matters worse for his little boy. He can't make it better, but if he stops visiting, he can stop it from getting worse for his child. It is breaking his heart.
Under these circumstances, does the mother and her family have precedence. ?
@Felicity - I can only reiterate that it is a dreadful mistake for any free-born person to marry a Muslim. These things happen. Your case is extremely typical. I'm sorry, but it is. The Koran and the haddith and all other Islamic traditions uniformly insist that all offspring of a Muslim are born Muslim and must be raised Muslim and the parent that was the born Muslim must be the one to do so. Otherwise, the Muslim grandparents of the child must do so. The mere convert to Islam cannot be allowed to raise the child because a convert is always suspect since he/she probably only converted in order to marry the Muslim in the first place and will leave Islam at the first opportunity. Islam just doesn't stand up well on its own merits. Unless you are well indoctrinated (read, "programmed"), to know it is to want to run from it VERY FAST.
For a non-Muslim to marry a Muslim, he/she must convert to Islam in accordance with Islamic laws and traditions, even if they don't happen to agree with the laws of the land.
The penalty for leaving Islam is death if you happen to be living in an Islamic country.
Islam requires no faith to maintain its adherents, though it often claims so. All it really uses is force and deceit. That Islamic family raising the child are employing force in the way of Islam. The best that can be done is for the child to be stolen back and hidden far out of reach. I didn't chose this option for my child when the option presented itself, because there would have been violence involved and his Muslim family did not abuse him as far as I know so he might have been traumatised to be stolen from them. They were all he knew after all. But your nephew is being both severely abused and programmed for terrorism. Better save him while you can. Paramilitaries are not too extreme an option under the circumstances.
Can anyone suggest better?
I met the daughter from Not Without My Daughter. She went to a Lutheran prep school that sent a lot of students to my college. She came to our college to speak a few times.
I wish I could add more to your answer but I think you did a great job answering.
You do realize that you're not the expert on every relationship in the world right? That you can't make generalizations about Muslim men at all just because you're butt hurt over one right? That not everyone is how you described? Because right now you sound extremely ignorant. My boyfriend is a practicing Muslim however he's not like anything the way you described.
@BunnyParfait - Why don't you marry him and find out? On the other hand, if he hasn't asked you to convert yet, there's no way he's interested in marrying you. It's non-Islamic to date, you know, but Muslim men are allowed to take non-Muslim concubines when they're far from home and sometimes even at home. They can be quite liberal around their concubines because its the only time they can really be themselves instead of simply religious. When it comes time to marry, his family will arrange something proper or be furious at him if he manages to duck that as some do. They tend not to be liberal with their wives when they take them home. Their families pressure them to be very strict.
I am not an expert on every relationship in the world but mine with a Muslim is not the only such experience I've encountered. I thought I was the only one when I first came back from Iran. It didn't take take too many years to find out how very wrong I was. There are MANY of us. Not saying there can't be exceptions, I just can't recall having met any.
That said, I reposted this in the hope that someone here might be able to offer help to my 7th commenter who lost a nephew to another such situation. Do you have any suggestions?
@Ampbreia - "Why don't you marry him and find out? On
the other hand, if he hasn't asked you to convert yet, there's no way
he's interested in marrying you."
That's interesting considering our relationship is only two months young and yet he hasn't tried to convert me at all knowing I'm a Buddhist. And yet we still talk a lot about our future together in a positive way. Seems like you're wrong here.
"It's non-Islamic to date, you know, but
Muslim men are allowed to take non-Muslim concubines when they're far
from home and sometimes even at home. "
My mother's side of my family is completely Muslim yet none of them have concubines and I'd say a good 20% of them are married to a non Muslim. Looks like you're wrong again?
"They can be quite liberal around their
concubines because its the only time they can really be themselves
instead of simply religious."
Actually I'm pretty sure people vary in all groups. There are liberals in all religions. Unlike you people are capable of thinking for themselves. And yet another part where you're wrong.
"When it comes time to marry, his family will
arrange something proper or be furious at him if he manages to duck
that as some do. "
Are you talking about the one Muslim male that you've ever encountered or are you talking about my boyfriend still? Because you know very little about him or his family, assumptions just make you look ass backwards.
"They tend not to be liberal with their wives when they take them home. Their families pressure them to be very strict."
Once again, a generalization. I think I see a pattern: you're uneducated so you make sweeping statements based on the one relationship you've ever had.
"I am not an expert on every relationship in
the world but mine with a Muslim is not the only such experience I've
encountered. I thought I was the only one when I first came back from
Iran. It didn't take take too many years to find out how very wrong I
was. There are MANY of us. Not saying there can't be exceptions, I
just can't recall having met any."
If you're saying there can be exceptions then why are you writing as if all Muslim men act that way? It seems like you're trying to say that a majority of people in one group act a certain way without even knowing the majority of men in that group nor having being married to a majority of men in that group. Do you understand what a logical fallacy is? It's when people like you say something contradictory or unfounded and end up looking like an ass.
"That said, I reposted this in the hope that
someone here might be able to offer help to my 7th commenter who lost a
nephew to another such situation. Do you have any suggestions?"
I suggest you stop preaching hate and educate yourself. Blaming Islam is just your method of comforting yourself, but it also makes you look like a total fuck tard. You're shameful.
Also Muslim men are allowed to marry Muslim women, as well as Christian women, as well as Jewish women. You're obviously very ignorant of the culture you rant about.
@BunnyParfait - In other words, you have nothing useful to offer. Okay. Well that was a waste of space, but thank you for dropping by.
Oh, and I would love it if you'd prove me wrong. I want to hear all about it when you do.
And yes I am well educated on the subject of Islam and have lived in a Sharia-practicing Islamic country. That is why I don't like it.
Are you Indonesian or Malaysian, by the way? I've heard things are very different there than in the Middle East, most easy going, but again, I've really only encounter the people who've been massively hurt by marriages to Muslims but nearly all were of Middle-Eastern extraction, except for a few Philapino ladies... but in those cases, it was Saudis they married.
We take great joy in knowing your kind will die soon. <3
Obviously me proving you wrong is very "useless" to you seeing as you have no mind and are stuck in your old ignorant ways.
@BunnyParfait - Good grief you're a rude little bitch! Most Budhists I've met have been very gentle polite people. You're not. You sound more like some of the hardline Muslims I've debated with at Faith Freedom.
@Ampbreia - I speak nothing but truth, and you have been far more rude and blasphemous. Whether you like it or not it is my duty to enlighten you no matter the technique. You however do not wish to be enlightened. Hence, you are worthless.
This is one of the very few times I will agree with avoiding a "mixed" marriage - some intercultural mixes are just too explosive and should perhaps be avoided. This is one of them. I am a big proponent of interracial marriages, etc., because they face too much opposition, but it is a different thing for two people of different races but from a similar culture than for two people from cultures and religions so different no consensus can ever be reached. In the latter case, it's safer not to marry because the two will simply not understand each other.
@BunnyParfait - I could say the same of you. Best to just block you. You take up too much space being rude and non-constructive. People like you represent Islam far too often even if only by proxy. Luckily, not all are like you. Some are actually nice people.
Good heavens - What type of person will write "We take great joy in knowing your kind will die soon". What a brutal mind. Are you sure you are communicating with another woman ?
@Felicity - Actually no. The voice of this person sounds rather a lot like a Pakistani Muslim I sometimes ran into on the Faith Freedom board. One of his given names was Abdullah Noor. Other times he came on with a female pseudonym but the same tell-tale URL. I left there not only because I didn't like talking to the likes of him but was disappointed when fellow debaters finally got irritated enough to start talking like that too. Civilized debate has no need of personal attacks and general purpose mud-slinging or threats.
goodness (that from reading comments) i only came to say, amp-one, that i appreciate the discussion thee and others sparked. i was tucson mall this weekend and noticed 2 women wearing the head dress you had described. i felt a little more educated because of thee ; ) so thank you!